The day of all sailors serving in any unit of the Russian fleet is celebrated every year on the 1st Sunday of July.

The most favorite clothing of sailors is considered to be the vest - a striped shirt made of knitwear. white and blue. The name “vest” comes from the fact that it is worn on a bare torso.

The meaning of the color of the stripes on a sailor's favorite clothing

The white and blue stripes across the vest corresponded to the St. Andrew's flag of the Russian Navy. In addition, in such vests the sailors were visually visible against the background of the blue sky, blue sea and white sails.

Back in the 19th century, a tradition arose of dividing flotillas according to the color of their stripes. Thus, depending on the vest, the identity of the sailor was immediately determined. Over time, troops began to be distinguished by the color of the stripes.

What colors are there?

  • black and white – troops Marine Corps and submariners;
  • cornflower blue with white – FSB special forces and presidential regiment forces;
  • green and white – border troops;
  • blue with white - airborne forces;
  • maroon and white - Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation;
  • orange and white - RF Ministry of Emergency Situations.

Jack

Guys is a collar that is put on top of the uniform and tied near the neck. This name comes from the root meaning of the word geus. What does flag mean in Dutch?

The flag of the navy is hoisted on ships of ranks 1-2 every morning at 8:00 until sunset while the ship is at anchor.

The origin of the guy is quite pragmatic. In the Middle Ages, men preferred to wear long hair. Hair was braided into braids or ponytails. And to fight lice there was only one remedy - tar. It was applied to the hair and, in order not to stain the shirt, the shoulders were covered with a special leather collar, which was easy to clean.

After many years, the fashion for long hair gone, but the habit of wearing a guy remained. Only gradually did leather replace ordinary fabric.

Origin of the stripes on the butt

No one can say with 100% certainty why there are three stripes on the butt. But there are two options for their appearance and quantity.
The first is the memory of three great naval victories in 1714 at Cape Gangut, in 1770. under Chesma and in 1853. Battle of Sinop.

The second option is born in the course of the legend about the three squadrons of Peter I. Depending on the proximity to the king, each squadron had 1, 2 and three stripes, respectively. Therefore, they began to believe that three stripes had a higher rank and meant a special affiliation with the guard.

The vest, otherwise called a sweatshirt, vest, or even the romantic phrase “sea soul,” begins its history from the time of the advent of the European sailing fleet. It is believed that the white-blue or white-blue coloring of the vest helped during sea voyages to always see sailors against the backdrop of snow-white sails, as well as to observe them in the water if they accidentally fell overboard.

The first naval ones appeared in the Breton fleet back in the 16th century. Then they had exactly 12 black and white stripes, the number of human ribs. In this way, the sailors wanted to deceive death itself. She was supposed to take the sailors for already dead and not touch them. And this is not a random belief, because in those days, traveling by sea was a very dangerous activity.

The tradition with 12 transverse stripes was adopted from the British by the Dutch. But the French sailors already had 21 stripes on their vests, each of which symbolized one of Napoleon’s major victories. The European experience of using vests was transferred to Russian soil only on August 19, 1874, by order of Grand Duke Konstantin Romanov.

Initially, a white-and-blue striped vest belonged exclusively to military sailors Russian fleet. And if at the end of the 19th century the naval vest consisted of white and blue stripes, among which the white stripes were much wider, then in our time this item of clothing contains white and blue stripes of the same width (approximately from 0.5 to 1.5 cm). Previously, vests were made from cotton and wool (in equal quantities), but now in most cases 100% natural cotton is used. The service life of a vest in the navy is one year.

During the Great Patriotic War German soldiers and their allies remembered well striped vests Marines (they had black and white stripes). It’s not for nothing that our sailors were nicknamed “striped devils.” And it’s not just about the courage and bravery of Russian sailors. The Europeans remembered very well that striped clothes had previously been worn by executioners, outcasts, terminally ill people and other outcasts of society who simply had nothing to lose.

Marines often changed into uniforms during battles to camouflage themselves. ground forces, but they always wore a vest. It was not only a comfortable piece of clothing for them, but also a special amulet. Russian warriors have also long had a tradition of putting on a clean shirt before battle. And nautical vests replaced them perfectly.

Airborne vest

Nowadays, the Airborne Forces are armed with vests with light blue stripes alternating with white. And the tradition of rewarding paratroopers who made the first parachute jump into water began in 1959. It was then, during the exercises, that Colonel V.A. Ustinovich presented the paratroopers with naval vests as a reward for good execution assigned task. Although the idea of ​​​​introducing vests with blue and white stripes into the Airborne Forces was carried out by the commander of the Airborne Forces V.F. Margelov and earlier, back in 1954-1959, as well as at a later time.

In the end, it was decided to make the vest an official part of the military clothing of the Airborne Forces, but only replace the blue stripes with light blue ones, symbolizing the color of the daytime sky in bright weather. And already in 1969, during the conflict in Czechoslovakia, all paratroopers wore uniform vests. Officially, this item of military clothing was assigned to the Airborne Forces by the Order of the USSR Ministry of Defense in 1969.

Vests for border troops

Since about the 1990s, vests various colors appeared in many branches of the military, in addition to the Navy and Airborne Forces. Border guards acquired white and green striped vests. This is due to the fact that in the 80s, a separate Vitebsk Airborne Division was suddenly transferred to the jurisdiction of the KGB of the USSR, which is why the light blue stripes were repainted green.

Then the paratroopers perceived this as an insult and oblivion of them military honor, but after the collapse of the USSR, when the division departed to Belarus and again became part of the Airborne Forces, the tradition of wearing white and green vests was already firmly rooted among border guards. And it hasn't changed to this day.

Vests of different types of troops

The colors of military vests for different branches of the military, Special Forces (special forces) and GRU (intelligence) were determined in Decree of the President of the Russian Federation No. 532 of 05/08/2005. In accordance with this document, it was determined the following types vest:

  • Navy - vests with white and dark blue stripes. The same vests are worn by cadets of the naval, as well as civilian river and maritime schools;
  • Airborne troops - vests with white and light blue stripes;
  • Border troops - white and green striped vests;
  • FSB special forces and the Presidential Regiment - vests with white stripes and cornflower blue stripes;
  • Ministry emergency situations- vests with white and orange stripes;
  • Special forces of the internal troops of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (Rosgvardia) - vests with white and maroon (burgundy) stripes.

Special mention should be made about sweatshirts with black and white stripes. You can often read that such vests are used by submariners and even the Marine Corps. However, it is not. Today, these types of troops use ordinary sailor vests with stripes of white and dark blue.

Simultaneously with vests different colors The Russian troops also use berets in several shades, from orange to black and green. Often, berets are part of the dress uniform or are issued to military personnel for some merit (for example, after passing sports standards). That is, the right to wear a beret often needs to be earned through hard work or some heroic deed.

Although vests are now used for everyday wear by many troops, only those with dark blue or light blue stripes can be called a classic naval vest (such vests are worn by Navy sailors and paratroopers).

In Russia there are many interesting holidays, there is also one - the birthday of the Russian vest, which is celebrated on August 19. Although it is not yet official, it is very popular in our country. It is especially widely celebrated in St. Petersburg, where enthusiasts celebrate it as their own tradition. The “Amateur” decided to recall the history of this piece of clothing.

Telnyashka (popularly also called telnik) is a striped shirt (hence the name), which is worn as a uniform item by military personnel in many countries, but only in Russia has it become a special symbol, distinctive sign real men. The date August 19 was also not chosen by chance. There is information that it was on this day in 1874, on the initiative of Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolayevich Romanov, who then held the highest naval rank - admiral general, Emperor Alexander II signed a decree on the introduction of a new uniform, which is the vest (a special “underwear” shirt) was introduced as part of the mandatory uniform for Russian sailors. The emperor also approved the “Regulations on the allowance of the commands of the Naval Department in terms of ammunition and uniforms,” which stated that this uniform was intended for the “lower ranks of ships and naval crews” of the Russian fleet. And the vest itself was regulated as follows: “A shirt knitted from wool in half with paper (ed. - with cotton); The color of the shirt is white with blue transverse stripes spaced one inch apart (44.45 mm). The width of the blue stripes is a quarter of an inch... The weight of the shirt is supposed to be at least 80 spools (344 grams)...".

The blue and white transverse stripes of the vests matched the colors of the St. Andrew's flag, the official flag of the Russian navy. And it was assumed that the new part of the uniform would be comfortable and functional.

The blue and white stripes of the vests corresponded to the colors of the St. Andrew's flag


Today it is popular not only among sailors. It must be said that in general, vests as such are not a Russian “invention.” The prototypes of vests appeared during the heyday of the sailing fleet, around the beginning of the 18th century, and were “born by life itself.” In the navy, it was very practical - it retains heat well, fits tightly to the body, does not restrict movement during any work, and dries quickly. Moreover, from the very beginning, the vest was striped (although the stripes were colored, and the sailors themselves sewed them onto the shirt) - against the background of light sails, the sky and in the dark water, a man in a vest was visible from afar and clearly. However, this approach resulted in an incredible variety of cuts, colors and stripes, so the “striped shirt” was considered a non-statutory form of clothing, and people were punished for wearing it.


Attitudes towards her have changed mid-19th century, when Dutch came into fashion naval uniform from a short peacoat, flared trousers and a jacket with a deep cut-out on the chest, into which the vest fit perfectly, and it was included in the sailor’s uniform. In Russia, the “fashion” for vests began to take shape, according to some sources, since 1862, according to others - since 1866. And the military reforms of 1865-1874 greatly changed the appearance of the Russian armed forces, and Russian sailors began to wear Dutch uniforms, including a vest.

In the middle of the 19th century, the Dutch naval uniform came into fashion


As a result, by decree of Alexander II in 1874, it was legalized as part of the uniform of a Russian sailor. Moreover, at first, vests were issued only to participants in long-distance hikes, and they were very proud of and cherished. In addition, they were first purchased abroad, and only then production was established in Russia. Mass manufacturing of vests first began at the Kersten factory in St. Petersburg (after the revolution - the Red Banner factory). Moreover, initially the white stripes were much (4 times) wider than the blue ones. Only in 1912 did they become the same in width (a quarter of an inch - approximately 11 mm). At the same time, the material also changed - the vest began to be made from cotton and wool. But the color of the stripes remained unchanged - white and dark blue.

After the revolution of 1917, the vest did not lose its popularity at all; wearing it was still prestigious. But in Soviet time, in addition to the white and blue vests, new “ color solutions" For example, the marines and rivermen wore vests with black stripes, and when the uniform for the Airborne Forces was created in 1969, by analogy with the uniform of sailors, vests were included in the uniform of the paratroopers, but the color of the stripes was changed to sky blue.



As a result, in the 1990s, vests with stripes of different colors were developed and officially “approved” for other branches of the military: black (naval submarine forces and marines), green (border troops), maroon (special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs), cornflower blue (FSB special forces, Presidential Regiment), orange (EMERCOM).

Sailors of all generations of the Russian fleet call the vest the “sea soul”


Also, a naval vest is included in the uniform set of naval and civil sea and river cadets educational institutions. However, it was the white and blue vest that was destined to become not only the “favorite” of the sailors, but also their symbol of valor and brotherhood. Sailors of all generations of the Russian fleet call it the “sea soul” and wear it with pleasure not only in the fleet, but also in everyday life. Moreover, these clothes are popular not only among professionals, but also among ordinary people - both adults and children. It has long become not only an element of naval equipment, but also an item of clothing for many people not associated with the navy. For example, a well-known popularizer of this “striped shirt” is the French fashion designer Jean-Paul Gaultier, who presented several blue-and-white striped ready-to-wear collections in the 1990s.

Interesting Facts:

It is believed that a sailor who goes to the open sea for the first time (no matter on a fishing boat, merchant ship or military cruiser) immediately joins the brotherhood of brave conquerors of the sea elements. There are a lot of dangers there, and sailors are the most superstitious people in the world. And one of the main maritime beliefs is associated with dark and light stripes applied to the vest.



It turns out that, unlike land citizens, every real sailor is sure that the abyss is inhabited by various demons and mermaids, and each of them poses a serious danger to the conquerors of the seas and oceans. To deceive them, they used a vest: it was believed that, having put on such a shirt, the sailors seemed to the spirits of the sea to already be dead, of whom only skeletons remained.

Fishermen of French Brittany were the first to wear a robe with black and white stripes to protect themselves from the spirits of the sea. At the beginning of the 17th century, this superstition spread throughout the Old World.

Having put on a vest, the sailors seemed already dead to the spirits of the sea.


Starting from 1852, according to the French standard, the vest was required to have 21 stripes - according to the number of major victories of Napoleon. In turn, the Dutch and English preferred a vest exclusively with 12 transverse stripes - the number of ribs in a person.

It is well known for what merits the vest migrated from the sea to land. The reason for this is the use of sailors in land military operations during the Civil and Great Wars. Patriotic War. For a reason unknown to historians, the sailors found themselves the best fighters than their land counterparts.

No wonder the enemy called the Marines “striped devils” in fear. There is still a popular saying in Russia: “We are few, but we are wearing vests!” During the war, it was supplemented by another: “One sailor is a sailor, two sailors are a platoon, three sailors are a company.” In the first battle on land on June 25, 1941, near Liepaja, the Baltic sailors put to flight the Wehrmacht soldiers who had previously captured half of Europe.

Sources

  1. http://oursociety.ru
  2. http://interesnogo.ru/
  3. http://www.calend.ru/

Every person who believes that he is familiar with the history of the Russian fleet will say:

“The first stripe marked the victory of the Russian fleet in the Battle of Gangut.
To commemorate the victory in the Battle of Grenham, a second stripe appeared on the collar of Russian sailors. The third stripe on the sailors’ collar appeared after the victory in Sinop Bay.”

1. “The Battle of Gangut is a naval battle of the Great Northern War of 1700-1721, which took place on July 27 (August 7), 1714 at Cape Gangut (Hanko Peninsula, Finland) in the Baltic Sea between the Russian and Swedish fleets, the first Russian naval victory in the history of Russia fleet.

The victory off the Gangut Peninsula was the first major victory of the Russian regular fleet. She provided him with freedom of action in the Gulf of Finland and the Gulf of Bothnia and effective support for Russian troops in Finland. In the Battle of Gangut, the Russian command boldly used the advantage of the rowing fleet in the fight against the Swedish linear sailing fleet, skillfully organized the interaction of naval forces and ground forces, reacted flexibly to changes in the tactical situation and weather conditions, managed to unravel the enemy’s maneuver and impose its tactics on him. The Battle of Gangut was one of the last major battles in the history of the fleet, in which decisive role played a boarding battle. For this battle, Peter I was promoted to vice admiral.

August 9 is the Day of Military Glory of Russia - the Day of Victory in the Battle of Gangut, the first in Russian history naval victory of the Russian fleet under the command of Peter the Great over the Swedes at Cape Gangut."

2. “The Battle of Grengam - a naval battle that took place on July 27 (August 7), 1720 in the Baltic Sea near the island of Grengam (southern group of the Åland Islands), was the last major battle Great Northern War.

After the Battle of Gangut, England, concerned about the growing power of the Russian army, formed a military alliance with Sweden. However, the demonstrative approach of the joint Anglo-Swedish squadron to Revel did not force Peter I to seek peace, and the squadron retreated to the shores of Sweden.

When on July 27 (August 7) ​​the Russian ships approached Grengam, the Swedish fleet under the command of K.G. Shoblada, having 156 guns, unexpectedly weighed anchor and approached, subjecting the Russians to massive shelling. The Russian fleet began to hastily retreat into shallow waters, where the pursuing Swedish ships ended up. In shallow water, the more maneuverable Russian galleys and boats went on the attack and managed to board 4 frigates (34-gun Stor-Phoenix, 30-gun Venker, 22-gun Kiskin and 18-gun Dansk-Ern) ), after which the rest of the Swedish fleet retreated.
The result of the battle of Grengam was the end of undivided Swedish influence in the Baltic Sea and the establishment of Russia on it.”

3. “Sinop naval battle on November 18 (30), 1853 between the Russian and Turkish squadrons in Sinop Bay during Crimean War 1853-56. The Turkish squadron under the command of Osman Pasha, which arrived at the port of Sinop from Istanbul, was preparing to land a large assault force in the Sukhum-Kale area. The Russian squadron of the Black Sea Fleet under the command of Vice Admiral P. S. Nakhimov (3 battleships) had the task of preventing active enemy actions. While cruising in the southeastern part of the Black Sea, on November 8 (20) she discovered a Turkish squadron and blocked it in Sinop Bay. With the arrival of reinforcements, Nakhimov, having 6 battleships and 2 frigates (720 guns), decided to attack the Turkish squadron (7 frigates, 3 corvettes, 2 frigate steamships, 2 brigs, 2 transports, a total of 510 guns). Having overcome the dense barrage of Turkish coastal batteries (38 guns), on November 18, Russian ships in the formation of wake columns broke into Sinop Bay, anchored and opened artillery fire on enemy ships and batteries. Within 4 hours, all Turkish ships (except for the escaped steamship Taif under the command of the English adviser A. Slade) and most of the coastal batteries were destroyed. Turkish losses amounted to over 3 thousand people, about 200 people, including the wounded Osman Pasha, were captured; The Russians lost 37 people killed and 235 wounded. Victory in S. s. the Russian fleet gained dominance in the Black Sea and disrupted Turkish plans landings in the Caucasus. In connection with the defeat of Turkey, its allies, Great Britain and France, sent their squadrons into the Black Sea in December 1853. The Battle of Sinop was the last battle of the era of the sailing fleet."

Anyone who read my article “Where and when did the Battle of Trafalgar take place?” probably guessed that both the Gangut and Grenham naval battles are other images of real naval battles that took place off the coast of England northwest of Newport in 1814. When the Russian imperial squadron wanted to land troops on the shores of England to punish the rebels. But success did not accompany the Russian troops. This was the first defeat of the imperial forces, which became an important link that later led to the death of the Russian empire.

I wrote an article about the Battle of Sinop with the version that it took place in 1827. This is another tragic date for the Russian Empire - the beginning of the seizure of Turkey, one of the territories still controlled by the Russian Empire at that time.

As a result of diversity real events on paper in time and space, history has changed diametrically. Instead of commemorating these events with a day of silence, Russian people celebrate them as great holidays, and are proud of it.

No matter how perverted our past is, our life today is just as perverted.

The vest in Russia is more than just an item of military uniform, it is a legend, tradition, history. It’s not for nothing that the vest from a typical naval uniform has expanded to cover all types of troops modern Russia, while acquiring a variety of colors.

Marine vest

The nautical undershirt with blue and white stripes has a long history dating back to the days of the sailing fleet. It is known that it was introduced into wide use by Dutch sailors. The Dutch naval uniform with a short black peacoat, bell-bottom trousers, a blue flannel jacket with a large cutout on the chest and an undershirt with blue stripes became popular in many countries.

However, the vest was “invented” not by the Dutch, but by the Bretons back in the 16th century. Breton sailors wore knitted jersey shirts with 12 (the number of ribs in the human body) black stripes - this is how they tried to deceive their death, which would take the sailors for skeletons and begin to touch them. When not on duty, sailors knitted their own undershirts, which were practical, comfortable, did not restrict movement and protected from the cold.

In Russia, the vest became part of the uniform of the Navy in the second half of the 19th century. At that time, military reform was carried out in Russia with changes in the structure, weapons and, of course, uniforms of military personnel, including sailors. In 1874, Emperor Alexander II approved “Regulations on the allowance of the commands of the Maritime Department in terms of ammunition and uniforms”, which, in particular, talked about uniforms for the “lower ranks of ships and naval crews” of the Russian fleet. The vest was defined as follows: “A shirt knitted from wool in half with paper; The color of the shirt is white with blue transverse stripes, spaced one inch apart (4.445 cm). The width of the blue stripes is a quarter of an inch... The weight of the shirt is supposed to be at least 80 spools (344 grams)...".

At first, vests were purchased abroad, and only then production was established in Russia. Mass manufacturing of vests first began in Kersten factory (By the way, the German Friedrich-Wilhelm Kersten in 1870 received a medal of the All-Russian Manufacture Exhibition and the title of hereditary honorary citizen of St. Petersburg) in St. Petersburg (after the revolution - Factory "Red Banner").

Vest stripes acquired the same size and width about 1 cm Only in 1912 was the composition of the material changed and the vest began to be made from cotton. The vest has remained in this form to this day. Its characteristics are defined GOST 25904-83 “Knitted marine sweatshirts and T-shirts for military personnel. General technical conditions". This GOST determines both the composition and quality of knitted material for tailoring, vests, and its “design”.

The vest became not only a convenient and practical item for a naval sailor, but also a symbol of masculinity, valor, perseverance, and true masculine character. People leaving the Navy and in civilian life continued to wear a vest as a symbol of their involvement in a special type of troops. Over time, the vest was introduced into the uniform for the Airborne Forces (Airborne Forces) in 1969, but the color of the stripes was sky blue. And the history of the appearance of the vest by Airborne Forces employees is as follows.

Vest in the Airborne Forces

In 1959, exercises were conducted on mass water landings. The weather was very rainy and windy, and headquarters officers led by General Lisov jumped from the first plane. We jumped from a height of 450 meters. The last to jump was Colonel V.A. Ustinovich. After he climbed out of the water onto the shore, he took out his naval vests from his bosom and handed them to the landing participants, as a symbol that the landing was carried out on the water. Since then, it has become a tradition to present vests to those who, in addition to the usual landing, also jumped onto the water. V.F. Margelov, commander of the Airborne Forces in 1954-1959 and 1961-1979, began to promote the idea of ​​​​introducing the vest as an element of the Airborne Forces uniform. Only the vest for the paratroopers was decided to be made not with dark blue stripes, but with light blue ones. The first to wear them were units and formations of the Airborne Forces that took part in the events in Czechoslovakia in 1968. July 26, 1969 by order USSR Ministry of Defense No. 191 Regular rules for wearing military uniforms were introduced, in which the wearing of a vest in the Airborne Forces was officially enshrined.

Vest with green stripes

Since the 1990s, vests with stripes of different colors began to appear in other troops. This is how border guards began to wear vests with green stripes. The paratroopers who served at that time say that at the end of the 80s the Vitebsk Airborne Division was transferred to the KGB of the USSR, as a result of which the blue vests and berets were “repainted” in green color, which was perceived by former paratroopers as an insult to their military honor. However, after the collapse of the USSR in 1991, the division was transferred to Belarus, where it again became an airborne unit. But the tradition of border guards wearing green vests remains.

Vests in the Russian Armed Forces

By Presidential Decree Russian Federation No. 532 of May 8, 2005 “On military uniform clothes, insignia of military personnel and departmental insignia" were, in particular, determined the colors of vests for various branches of the Russian Armed Forces, namely:

Navy– dark blue vests

Airborne Forces- blue vests

border troops- light green vests,

special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs- maroon vests,

FSB special forces, Presidential Regiment- cornflower blue vests

Ministry of Emergency Situations- orange vests

Also, a naval vest with dark blue stripes is included in the uniform of cadets of naval and civilian maritime and river educational institutions.

As you can see, nothing is stated here about black vest! It is often attributed to submarine and marine units, but in accordance with Decree No. 532, they have the same vest as ordinary military personnel of the Russian Navy, that is, with dark blue stripes.

In general, the introduction of vests of different colors for different branches of the military has somewhat diminished the authority of the vest, but, nevertheless, this does not apply to naval and landing vests with dark blue and light blue stripes.

Vest in modern fashion

The vest, as a rule, a “real” naval vest with dark blue stripes, has become popular among the civilian population; it is worn not only by adult men, but often by children, and sometimes by women. A famous popularizer of this “striped shirt” was the French fashion designer Jean-Paul Gaultier, who in the 1990s created several sets of clothes with blue and white stripes. IN recent years a “vest” with stripes appeared Pink colour! Such an outrage against the symbol of military valor and bravery is difficult for courageous guys who served and are serving in the Navy or Airborne Forces to endure, but it should be taken as a joke, even stupidity. Nevertheless, the theme of the nautical vest has become popular in fashion and periodically appears in women's costumes.

Mitki and vest

People of the older generation, those whose youth fell in the 80s of the last century, remember such a group of alternative artists called Mitki (formally, this group still exists today, although the spirit of that time has a different intensity).

The Mitki chose a vest as an element of clothing, as some kind of identification mark. Perhaps in Everyday life They also wore something other than a vest, but when they gathered for any occasion, they all certainly put on vests.

Despite the current availability of vests and their variety of colors, they should be treated not just as comfortable fashionable clothing, but as a military symbol with a long tradition, especially for “real” vests with dark blue naval and light blue Airborne stripes. It is not recommended for civilians to wear maroon vests, the right to wear which, like the right to a maroon beret, is earned by members of the special forces of the Internal Troops through hard work, or at least this was the case a few years ago.